Kyle Gray: (00:37)

Hello and welcome to The Story Engine Podcast. Today on the show we have Lisa Fraley. Lisa Fraley is a legal expert and helps coaches, small business owners and service providers protect their income and their intellectual property by making the law simple. She prides herself and I think she absolutely succeeds in it in this interview in making complicated seeming things that are associated with the law that are scary that we stay away from to our own risk seems simple, approachable, and easy. We go into a lot of detail in that. Without any further ado, let’s turn it over to Lisa.

Kyle Gray: (01:25)

Lisa Fraley, welcome to The Story Engine Podcast.

Lisa Fraley: (01:29)

Thank you so much for inviting me, Kyle. I’m excited to dive in.

Kyle Gray: (01:33)

We’ve got a lot of legal speak. Just before we started recording I mentioned how excited I was to have you on because you have a knack for making things that are scary and nebulous, clear. This legality of setting up a business and the small little laws that you need to be aware of when marketing online, growing a business, maybe hiring new people and so I’m really excited to hear all about this. But I want to introduce you properly before we dive into the meat and potatoes. Could you tell me a story about a moment in your life that has led you to become who you are and how you show up in the world today?

Lisa Fraley: (02:17)

Yeah, sure. I knew you’re going to have me tell a story because you are the storytelling expert of course, but I will say this, Kyle, I think one of the moments that really stands out to me is when I was working at the large law firm. I had gone to law school and studied healthcare law and I got a job in a big law firm like you’re supposed to right out of law school with a cushy paycheck and a beautiful mahogany wild office and I worked a gazillion hours a day.

Lisa Fraley: (02:47)

Just like you would think of I’d build a million hours a day. I remember there was a moment when I realized that my health was suffering as a result. I was actually depressed. I felt my body just shrink. I realized that it was actually harming my heart and my soul to stay in that environment and that I really couldn’t practice law or express myself in the way that I wanted to.

Lisa Fraley: (03:15)

They valued my mind, they valued my work ethic, but I didn’t know that I felt I as a whole was valued. At that moment I remember thinking, “What am I going to do? This is what I’ve worked for. I went to college, I went to law school, I went to a healthcare program. I did well, what am I thinking? This is a law firm that people want to bang down the doors and get into and I am going to leave?”

Lisa Fraley: (03:38)

But that’s exactly what I did. I left the law firm and I had no idea what I wanted to do next. I just knew it wasn’t that. This was very scary. I felt very nervous. But I worked with a life coach and then I found I wanted to become a life coach. I went to life coaching school, which actually led me to go to health coaching school.

Lisa Fraley: (04:01)

Then from there, I worked with a bunch of health coaches and I hung out my shingle as a health coach and wanted to help people get healthy and eat well and eat healthy foods and not live on sugar and caffeine like I’d been living at the law firm. As it turned out, they all wanted a lawyer who understood health coaches.

Lisa Fraley: (04:19)

Today what I do, actually, this led me down this road to be able to help health coaches and online entrepreneurs and small business owners really get easy legal steps in place that are not scary or overwhelming, not outrageously expensive so that they don’t have to worry or stress or fear that they’re going to be sued or do something wrong.

Lisa Fraley: (04:40)

That path, that one day at that law firm led me to where I am today.

Kyle Gray: (04:44)

This is really exciting to me. You inspire so many different thoughts. Just the other day, one of my close friends is a patent attorney here in Utah and he mentioned like, “Oh, I want to figure out a cool business.” They couldn’t get out of the idea of maybe creating some kind of product, but I was like, “You guys have a ton of skill already.” They’re like, “Well, I don’t want to… I don’t know about how to do this.”

Kyle Gray: (05:13)

I just love your story as such a creative way to combine your lifetime of experience and what you were training and investing so much and take it in a totally new direction. That is… it seems like it’s not only cured a lot of the things that were ailing you in the law firm but helped you go beyond and be fulfilled and happy.

Lisa Fraley: (05:39)

Yes. I have a lighted ampersand marquee on my wall in my office because I talk about that exactly Kyle. I bring the and together the education and training of a healthcare attorney with the love and the care of a health and life coach to try to help people holistically and look at the law in a practical way, but then also energetically as well.

Kyle Gray: (06:00)

Wow. Well and just one more thing I’ve got to comment on, because I’m so excited to see this mostly for the audience’s sake, but it’s such a cool niche you’ve found. A lot of people like to wonder about what a niche is or how to find it and how to really specialize, and it’s so cool when it’s… like you’ve… it works best when your story and your background in your life combined in such a cool way.

Kyle Gray: (06:29)

You’ve found such a highly desired, needed skill and a community of people that you enjoy, uplift you and so it helps and it furthers your passion. That’s a… it’s just an excellent niche and an excellent thing too, for any business to really aspire to be locked into no matter what kind of service.

Lisa Fraley: (06:51)

Thank you. Thank you Kyle. You’ve done the same I might add for yourself.

Kyle Gray: (06:55)

Yeah. Yeah. It feels so great. It’s really like a night and day difference. A lot of the times when I work with people, I work really hard to get clear on that ideal customer for them. Because I feel like so few people have done that. But once you… I see how important it is, because before, I was a digital marketer, worked for startups, worked for coaches and things like that. But there’s tons of people who are… styled themselves as copywriters or storytelling coaches or things like that. I was just… I felt this stress of, how do I make myself different? I don’t know what new, I’m just saying. Now all of a sudden when I was like, “Wow, these health people, it’s really cool what they’re doing. I want to learn more.”

Kyle Gray: (07:40)

All of a sudden I’m one of the only marketers in the room. Yeah, it’s a total paradigm shift.

Lisa Fraley: (07:50)

Amazing. Amazing.

Kyle Gray: (07:52)

Yeah. Let’s get into some often desired legal advice and we’re talking about coaches, small business owners, service providers, maybe content creators, what kinds of… what are the big misconceptions or maybe mental challenges that people have or obstacles that have around the law that you commonly see in your audience?

Lisa Fraley: (08:23)

Yeah, thanks for asking that question because I get asked all the time what stops people from getting legally covered or where there holes, where there… when they don’t know what to do, where do they start? I think what’s challenging is that for a lot of people, they’ve come into legal situations either through negative situations like something’s happened in their family or they’ve experienced divorce of their parents, or they have estate issues or they’ve been sued in a different business, or some people just come in with negative experiences.

Lisa Fraley: (08:55)

Understandably not to mention, it does not help that every five minutes on TV there’s some lawyer joke or people, all our lives have made jokes about lawyers and lawyers are often misunderstood and not trusted. I think that’s a burden for people to get over on the one hand. The second thing I would say, Kyle, is that I think people just don’t know where to begin.

Lisa Fraley: (09:17)

It’s so hard when you’re capable and competent and bright and knowledgeable about your area of expertise, but then when we step out into a different area, we feel like we’re just a fish out of water and we don’t even know what questions to ask. I think sometimes that slows people’s down or stops people from asking because they just don’t even really know what to ask.

Lisa Fraley: (09:36)

I even felt that way as a lawyer, believe it or not, when I talk with my accountant for the first time, because I said, “Hey, I’m a reasonably bright person, but I don’t even know what to ask you in the accounting world.”

Lisa Fraley: (09:47)

I think it’s normal for us to feel this way. One of the things that I try to do is to help make the law less scary or help people feel less vulnerable so that they are actually practicing protecting themselves, taking simple, easy legal steps like contracts and disclaimers and trademarks and LLCs and s-corps and things like that so that you can build this nice solid legal foundation under you so you feel more safe and secure and confident going forward to do what you want to do in your business.

Lisa Fraley: (10:18)

Mostly I try to take the fear out of it by making it easy to understand and approachable and accessible and not nearly as expensive as a lot of traditional corporate lawyers.

Kyle Gray: (10:30)

Awesome. One of the things that I like about lawyers is they, especially in writing, have a careful attention to every word and the meaning and the angle of this, and this is actually, I wonder if you see parallels as from your experience as a life coach. I’ve been doing some coaching or story training, which is more around an internal mindset, but you would almost… what I’m noticing is

Kyle Gray: (11:00)

In the way that a lawyer looks over a contract, you’re looking over the thoughts that are repeating in your head and striking a line through a word of here and moving it there. And so I’m wondering if that attention to words has crossed over between all of these different trainings that you’ve used.

Lisa Fraley: (11:21)

Yes, definitely. And another analogy to add to that is, I know you had mentioned there are people listening who are book authors and it’s a lot like editing your own manuscript actually often when you’re working with a legal document, which is, I know a little pain painstaking sometimes, but also enlightening when you are editing for a specific purpose.

Lisa Fraley: (11:42)

So I think what’s interesting about lawyers and the work that we do around words is, and I think this is part of why people haven’t trusted lawyers and part of why it’s so confusing, is because it really does take a surprisingly long time to read through a contract and edit it. And anyone who’s written a book knows how long it takes to do that with your own book.

Lisa Fraley: (11:59)

But with a contract, you’re looking to see what the words say, you’re looking to see how the words could be used against the your client, and you’re also looking to see what’s been omitted or what’s missing. So it’s almost a three fold approach to looking at any sentence in a legal document. And it just takes a long time to usually figure out what’s missing from the document.

Lisa Fraley: (12:22)

But you’re right, Kyle. The other thing that’s interesting about law is as a coach, we know that our clients have the answers in their own lives. Your gift is helping people pull their own story out from within them. And as a lawyer, you are the one who actually has the answers. So it’s sort of this balancing act between helping to honor what the client knows to be right and true for themselves from the coach side of me, but also providing legal answers and recommendations and information education to help them with information and knowledge they don’t yet have.

Kyle Gray: (12:56)

Wow. So what are some of the big things that are going undone? Because I’m too scared to think about or research these things.

Lisa Fraley: (13:07)

Yeah. I think the area that I always encourage people to focus on the most is to protect and honor your income. And that sounds kind of obvious, but at the same time, sometimes we don’t know how to do that. So if you’re a coach for example, and you’re working with a client, I would encourage you to use a written client agreement that you sign and that the coach signs, you both signed the client signs, so that you both are on the very same page about your client policies around what’s included in your program, around payment, what happens if they miss a payment? Refunds, what happens if they miss a call with you? What happens if you have a dispute?

Lisa Fraley: (13:45)

When you put all of these things in writing right off the bat, right at the start, you both actually your nervous systems relax, because you’re on the same page, literally and figuratively. And you’re moving forward with an agreement and understanding of what’s expected of you, and what’s expected of them. And you’re creating a legal container to hold and support your income, so that if they don’t pay you or if they go stu, or if they do a charge back or something happens, you have legal documentation to fall back on to protect and honor your income.

Lisa Fraley: (14:17)

And the one other thing I’ll say about that, Kyle, is I do align legal steps with the chakras in the body, which sort of makes me unique. And that energetically I believe legal documents align with different energy centers of our body. And this one aligns with the second chakra, where we’re talking about creating a container of trust around income, around boundaries, around relationships. And finding ways to really have a document hold all of those expectations in one place for clarity and understanding.

Kyle Gray: (14:53)

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of chakras and the law being so well blended ever, or if at all. So congratulations to you on that. And is that the process that you would take them through? We’d go through the seven chakras?

Lisa Fraley: (15:12)

Seven chakras. That’s right. Yeah. So my book is easy legal steps that are also good for your soul. And each chapter goes through a chakra and a legal document as well as a principle. But basically kind of what I do is when I work with someone, I try to find out about their practice or their business, figure out what it is that they want to do next, what is it they’re trying to accomplish? And then figure out what they have in place legally, what’s missing that they don’t have in place yet, and also what they need for what’s coming ahead. So I’m a huge fan of taking a snapshot of where someone is and helping them get up to speed with what they need, as well as in the immediate future, but not everything at once. I just like to help people go step by step so it’s not overwhelming, it’s not too expensive. Just one step at a time to put documents and protections in place.

Kyle Gray: (16:00)

So my training as a copywriter, I’ve learned there’s one big rule that I often have to teach in the health and wellness space and it’s difficult to sell prevention. More in the times of talking to somebody who’s maybe in their early 40s about what they can do now to prevent Alzheimer’s. But what you are doing is also prevention, but people understand it and it’s more tangible in some way or is it? What are you selling when you sell this? Or what can somebody, if after working with you, how is their life different and better? What does that look like?

Lisa Fraley: (16:42)

Great question. Ooh, you probe. This is your expertise. You probe and get into it. So you asked a couple of questions there. One is, “how do I want people to feel after they’re done getting their legal protections in place,” which is the main goal to me. And that is to safer, to feel more secure, to feel more confident, and to feel more empowered to go out and do whatever it is that they want to do that they were perhaps holding themselves back from doing, because they didn’t have legal protection in place, or they felt vulnerable or exposed or worried they would do it wrong or have someone come after them. So the goal is to really help people feel safe because ironically, we have to feel safe in order to take risks. It’s such a paradox, but we have to feel safe before we will expand our courage and take risks.

Lisa Fraley: (17:26)

So if we don’t have a safe foundation underneath our feet to begin with, we don’t go anywhere. We just stay there hiding. Or not even hiding, but just in a place of fear or worry. But when we feel secure and we have legal documents to fall back on, then we can move forward. The second part is what are you actually selling? What is it that people are actually getting when they get legal protection? Interestingly, there’s two things when it comes to the law. First, is you have an obligation to tell people your expectations upfront, and your policies up front, which can be helpful to avoid situations from happening on the backend. Because the more clear you are upfront, the less problems potentially will happen on the backend.

Kyle Gray: (18:07)

Happier clients.

Lisa Fraley: (18:08)

So you’re helping people get clarity. Pardon?

Kyle Gray: (18:10)

Happier clients, too.

Lisa Fraley: (18:12)

Happier clients. Yes, of course. Because they know what’s expected of them. They know what happens if they have to miss a call, how many calls they can miss, what happened, what they need to do between call, however you structure your work with them, they know what to expect, which relaxes them and helps them actually do achieve more. The other thing is that you’re helping people on the back end. So if there is a problem and someone doesn’t make a payment, or someone goes to you, someone swipes your copy off of your website, which happens horribly and often, you have a legal document that says what your policies are. And for whatever reason our government requires in our law, our legal system, requires that we tell people upfront not to take our work. It’s not assumed. So you have an obligation to tell people you cannot copy and take my programs. You cannot copy and take my website. So you have legal documents to fall back on if they do.

Kyle Gray: (19:08)

Wow. You’ve worked with a lot of people, and there’s a certain kind of way to tell stories in a presentation. Oh God, it’d be fun to try with you. A story of somebody who is a negative example of like this person, thought that they could just go it on their own, look what happened to them. And then you tell a story about somebody who did have the thing in place and how much better their life is.

Lisa Fraley: (19:38)

And this is why Kyle, I so appreciate you, in helping those of us who come from just the facts, ma’am, to get into our space of better storytelling. This is an area I’m always working on myself. But I will share an example. And by the way, everything I’m sharing in this conversation is all just informational and educational. I’m going to share a client example here. This is not true. I have changed names. Confidentiality is protected. I just want everyone to know that. You always want to work with your own attorney around your own situation. But here’s an example that might help you.

Lisa Fraley: (20:11)

So there was a client I had who was offering a very high end program. She happened to be a business coach, and she was offering a $25,000 program. And she had not ever wanted to use an agreement. She came from a philosophy, even though she came from very strong corporate sales background, she just felt that in a coaching or a more intimate type of relationship, that it created negative energy, and it would repel her client and that her client wouldn’t want to sign the contract and wouldn’t want to work with her. So she didn’t want to use a contract. So she didn’t, and so she worked with this client and about, I don’t know, maybe it was like 6 weeks through a 12 week program, the client just stopped paying and stopped coming to any coaching sessions.

Lisa Fraley: (21:01)

She completely stopped paying, she stopped coming to the sessions, and she also asked for a refund. She said that she was not receiving what she was told she would receive, and she wanted all of her money back, even for all the services had already been rendered. And so that was devastating, as you can imagine to the coach. $25,000 that was paid up front and in full is a lot of money to be asked to give back. And philosophically, the coach didn’t have a problem with giving back half of it, $ 12,500 for services that she hadn’t provided yet. But she was very upset and did not want to give her $12,500 for the services she already had provided in the first six weeks.

Lisa Fraley: (21:41)

But what happened was there was no written contract, there was nothing that could be valid to prove that this client had agreed to make the payment and agreed to a no refund policy. So even having a no refund

Lisa Fraley: (22:00)

… statement on your sales page isn’t enough or having it in email isn’t enough because there’s no agreement to those terms by the client. The coach, unfortunately and despairingly, had to give $12,500 back. And she then came to me and said, “I need a contract and I will now use a contract going forward.”

Kyle Gray: (22:26)

And it doesn’t harsh the vibes that much, but actually-

Lisa Fraley: (22:26)

That’s right.

Kyle Gray: (22:27)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Fraley: (22:28)

Well, and Kyle, I’m glad you mentioned that because part of what I love to do is help coaches or entrepreneurs know that when they are presenting a contract to a client, there are ways to do it that make it feel more comfortable.

Lisa Fraley: (22:39)

And just to share this little tip quickly is that, for example, you can say, “Hey, I’m so excited to work with you. To get started in my program, there’s three steps to get enrolled. First, I’m going to send you a payment link through PayPal or I’m going to send you an invoice or click here on my website to make a payment,” or whatever it is that they do. “Number two, I’m going to send you a client agreement. I’d really love for you to take a look at it, read through it. Please let me know if you have any questions at all upfront. I’m happy to talk with you about it. I want to make sure you’re comfortable with it. And when you’re ready to sign it and send it back to me by email or you could do it through an electronic signature program. And third, your next step is to schedule your first coaching call or your series of coaching calls or whatever it is.”

Lisa Fraley: (23:22)

You can present it as a natural step in the process so it doesn’t seem so stilted or cold or corporate or uncomfortable. It’s just one of the things that they do to get enrolled. And the more you’re comfortable with that process, the more the client is comfortable as well.

Kyle Gray: (23:36)

Absolutely. Okay, now let’s hear the positive story. The person who had had their stuff together and how did they save themselves?

Lisa Fraley: (23:49)

Okay. How did they save themselves? Okay, so let me think of a good example. I think I want to tell the story of a trademark actually.

Kyle Gray: (23:59)

Okay.

Lisa Fraley: (24:01)

There’s a client who owns a local business and it’s a dance studio called The Flying Fox. I’m just going to make this up because I don’t want to disclose what the title really is. And so this girl had been wanting to trademark the name of her dance studio, but she was waiting for the trademark that had existed previously by another business owner to expire before she trademarked her brand. We watched it for two years to make sure this other company wasn’t going to re-enroll their trademark, and wasn’t going to register it again for another 10 year period. And lucky for her, they let it lapse and she was able to file her trademark.

Lisa Fraley: (24:51)

And she was so happy about this because trademarks are designed to protect brands, protect brand names or logos or taglines or program names or small phrases or images that are used in a business from a marketing perspective. Not copyright, which is for books and plays and movies and longer works, I like to say. Trademarks are for marketing and brands.

Lisa Fraley: (25:18)

And so she waited and watched and then came to me. We did a trademark search just to make sure there hadn’t been any other trademarks that have been filed out there between the time of her desire versus when we filed the trademark application, and there weren’t any other trademarks that were the same or substantially the same according to the views of the USPTO and then we filed her trademark. I cannot tell you how elated she was. It takes 10 to 18 months. This one took about an average of 10 months. How elated she was that she was able to receive her trademark for The Flying Fox that she went into her dance studio and danced around the studio expressing her happiness and joy and her whole class danced their joy as well.

Lisa Fraley: (25:59)

This is clearly not a common occurrence with entrepreneurs who I work with. But it made me so happy because she literally was embodying the happiness she felt being able to protect her name, so that no one else could have that same name or a name that was substantially similar in the field of dance or physical movement or exercise.

Kyle Gray: (26:17)

It could only be the person that associates law and chakras that could ultimately, through legal practice, make a room of women start dancing around.

Lisa Fraley: (26:29)

Dancing. Exactly. That’s why I love to tell that story because who would ever just that people would be dancing their joy. But it is an accomplishment. I align trademarks actually with the crown chakra because I always tongue-in-cheek say it’s a crowning achievement for any entrepreneur to own a trademark because you really do get sort of the ultimate rights to your brand and you really are connecting yourself to a larger global marketplace that way as well.

Kyle Gray: (26:52)

Okay, so here’s a question for a friend, not really.

Lisa Fraley: (26:57)

We’ll take those.

Kyle Gray: (27:00)

Can you trademark your own name because there is a Kyle Gray who I consider him my digital rival. He’s out of England or Scotland or something.

Lisa Fraley: (27:11)

Yes, I know who he is, yes.

Kyle Gray: (27:13)

You know who he is?

Lisa Fraley: (27:13)

I do.

Kyle Gray: (27:14)

The Angel Whisperer.

Lisa Fraley: (27:15)

He is the Angel Whisperer. Well, I’ve got a little spirituality going on over here because of the chakra [crosstalk 00:27:20]

Kyle Gray: (27:19)

You do. You’ve heard of him. He’s a prolific marketer, and yeah.

Lisa Fraley: (27:26)

But not a storyteller, I must say.

Kyle Gray: (27:28)

Oh, oh.

Lisa Fraley: (27:29)

Okay. No, meaning like this is your area of expertise. Angels are his area.

Kyle Gray: (27:34)

True, true, true.

Lisa Fraley: (27:34)

It’s all good. There’s room for everyone. Here’s the thing, Kyle, about names is that to some degree some people can trademark a name, but only when the name becomes a brand. Perfect example is Ralph Lauren, right? I don’t know if you know Ralph Lauren? The man, gray hair, older guy. He often wears a leather jacket, lives on ranches and things like that, the man, Ralph Lauren. However, he has a clothing brand, an accessory brand, furniture brand, whatever. And so the reason he was able to trademark Ralph Lauren is because it’s associated with a marketing purpose that is separate and distinct from him as a person.

Lisa Fraley: (28:10)

If you create a brand that can stand alone as a brand for marketing purposes different than you from your identity, then sometimes you’re able to trademark your name. It’s better sometimes to trademark your name with something afterwards, so like Kyle Grey’s Storytelling Method or Kyle Grey’s the Story Engine. It’s better to put your name with other words, you have a better chance of having it be granted.

Kyle Gray: (28:39)

Okay. Okay. I might have to do that. I’ve got an upcoming group coaching program. Dare I say the name because-

Lisa Fraley: (28:45)

Don’t say the name. Well, [crosstalk 00:28:49] you can do whatever you wish, but I would prefer you have it checked out first to make sure it’s not conflicting with any other registered trademarks and then you can go forward and share.

Kyle Gray: (28:59)

Do you have a couple of easy steps that somebody could do? Is there a website that I go to to check that out?

Lisa Fraley: (29:05)

Yeah. I have actually, my own podcast is called The Legally Enlightened Podcast and I have several episodes around the trademarking process that you can listen to, everything from what is a trademark and when should I do it to how does the trademarking process work, the search and the application. People can find that on iTunes or just Google it or on my website.

Kyle Gray: (29:25)

We will put it in the show notes.

Lisa Fraley: (29:26)

Perfect. Perfect.

Kyle Gray: (29:27)

Yeah, so just send me those links over after and we’ll have those loaded up for everybody to check out in the show notes.

Lisa Fraley: (29:34)

Great.

Kyle Gray: (29:34)

Awesome. Well, we have covered so much, and you’ve delivered on your promise of making this a fun and lifting experience in learning about law and how it can protect and enhance what we do. Lisa, let us know, you just mentioned your podcast to us, but let us know where else we can connect with you and I’d love to hear any closing thoughts as well.

Lisa Fraley: (30:02)

Sure. You can definitely connect with me through my website, which is just lisafraley.com. And there you’ll find links to my book, easy legal stuff, which is also an Amazon. And you can also listen to my podcast for free episodes, a hundred free episodes on small, legal, bite-sized, digestible legal tips, as we like to say, Kyle. So 20 minutes or less, every podcast is 20 minutes or less. You can learn about legal principles in ways that are hopefully light and interesting and not boring, similar to the way we just did this interview today. That’s the best place. I’m also on social media, but go to the website. You can also get do-it-yourself legal templates that are really easy to download and use, that are designed for holistic and online entrepreneurs.

Lisa Fraley: (30:47)

And I guess with the final thought, Kyle, thank you for making this conversation so fun. But I just invite everyone to hopefully be open to having and using legal support in your business. Understand that it doesn’t matter if you’re just starting out or if you’ve been working for a long time and you don’t have legal protections in place, no judgment. That’s cool. Don’t worry. But know that the sooner you do it, the sooner you’re creating a foundation so that if something goes wrong, you do have documents to fall back on or legal protections like a trademark or an LLC or an S corp to help support you. Law is really designed to be a tool to aid and support and help you in your business and to be a friendly experience as opposed to a negative one. Thank you so much for inviting me to join you. This has been great.

Kyle Gray: (31:36)

Beautiful. Thank you for joining us, Lisa.

Kyle Gray: (31:38)

Thanks for listening to The Story Engine Podcast. Be sure to check out the show notes and resources mentioned on this episode and every other episode at thestoryengine.co.

Kyle Gray:

Thanks for listening to the Story Engine Podcast. Be sure to check out the show notes and resources mentioned on this episode and every other episode at thestoryengine.co. 

If you’re looking to learn more about how to use storytelling to grow your business, then check out my new book, Selling With Story: How to Use Storytelling to Become an Authority, Boost Sales, and Win the Hearts and Minds of Your Audience. This book will equip you with actionable strategies and templates to help you share your unique value and build trust in presentations, sales, and conversations, both online and offline. Learn more at sellingwithstory.co. 

Thanks for listening, and I’ll see you next time.