Kyle Gray: (00:37)

Hello, and welcome to The Story Engine Podcast. My name is Kyle Gray, and today on this show, we have Joan Rosenberg. Joan is a world-famous psychotherapist and psychologist, and brilliant in so many different areas. She has world-famous TED talks, bestselling books, and has a lot of excellent information to share. One of the things I loved most about her was that she was indeed one of those people that just has a message and has an idea, and it’s just like pouring forth from her. She’s not trying to build a business; although she has a very successful business, she is trying to get her message out, she’s trying to make an impact.

Kyle Gray: (01:19)

She has so many good things to share with you on the episode today, everything from how she prepared her own TED talks and prepared herself mentally, to how she works with some individual coaches and practitioners. So there is excellent information, no matter where your mental health status is, no matter what you’re doing in your business. There’s a lot of great value here in learning how to better communicate and speak with yourself and communicate and speak with others. So without any further ado, let’s hand it over to Joan.

Kyle Gray: (01:55)

Dr. Joan Rosenberg, welcome to The Story Engine Podcast.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (01:59)

Well, thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.

Kyle Gray: (02:03)

Dr. Joan, I am so excited too. We were just talking a few minutes before we started recording, and there are so many things that I want just to jump the gun and dig right into right away. Still, I want to introduce you properly to the audience, and that is with this question: Will you tell me about a story in your life that has defined who you are and how you show up in the world today?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (02:26)

Absolutely. It’s also entirely linked with the work that I do in the world. I started out in the world as a very exquisitely shy and exquisitely sensitive child who didn’t feel like I fit in. I felt like I would look over and see all my peers hanging together and go… it’s like, “How come I don’t have what they have?” And when I would walk over to them, I realized that getting confidence didn’t happen through osmosis. So just standing there wasn’t going to make a difference for me to fit in and have those kinds of experiences. I was bullied for years, or indeed all through my childhood and adolescence, and even into college a bit.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (03:15)

So those experiences really defined me. On the one hand, it kind of opened questions that have kind of set my life. One had to do with, how does one develop confidence? The other part of it is that I adopted a high value of being kind based on being bullied. I never wanted to treat somebody the way I’d been treated, and so one of my highest values is to be positive, kind, and well-intentioned.

Kyle Gray: (03:45)

Well, and, hopefully, it seems like it certainly paid off in the long run. I really feel for that story. I can remember for some reason, maybe, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the Enneagram test?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (03:58)

Of course. Yes.

Kyle Gray: (03:58)

Are you a four?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (04:00)

You know what? It’s been so long since I took it. Somehow I think I’m in that neighborhood, but I don’t remember where I land.

Kyle Gray: (04:08)

Okay. Well, it’s a personality test, but I’m a four, and I grew up with a very similar internal story. I don’t know if it’s true, but I always was like, “I don’t fit in anywhere.” I had a hard time finding my place. I think that that’s also a common trait, and I’d love to hear this from the audience in the comments or the emails if you respond. Still, I feel like a lot of people who go on to make significant impacts and do great things kind of start out feeling kind of weird and awkward and not certain of how they fit in the world.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (04:50)

I would agree with you. Absolutely.

Kyle Gray: (04:53)

So you mentioned you highly value kindness. How does that work in your work right now? How are you impacting people’s lives, making them better? What is your day-to-day world-changing look like right now?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (05:12)

I would say probably in at least four or five different areas. I teach graduate school and I teach clinicians, budding young clinicians, masters, and doctoral students, how to do psychotherapy. So teaching them an approach, in terms of how to be present and well connected with the people they’re serving, and how to help is one way that it shows up.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (05:37)

The second is my coaching and psychotherapy practice. The third is, I have a couple of TED talks out there, so that’s serving the world. I also speak and train in the area of, kind of broadly speaking, emotional mastery and confidence-building and resilience. And then my writing. I just came out with a book called 90 Seconds to a Life You Love. So there are many different avenues.

Kyle Gray: (06:07)

We’ve got a long way to go. Well, here’s where I’d love to start. Working with, you mentioned training masters students and other clinicians, and there’s a lot of people on this show who are professionals. They have high-value services, or they are coaches in some way or another. I would love to hear from a psychologist’s perspective, when conducting psychotherapy. What are some things that any coach could use, could learn from you to bring in to what they’re doing, whether they’re doing weight loss coaching, to financial advising, marketing, whatever the case is? Are there some trends and some valuable things that you try to instill in all of your students?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (06:53)

Yes, there are. I think of therapy as choreography. In that regard, then I would also think of coaching as choreography, and it’s a movement towards the fundamental open-ended questions, to be able to listen intently and track what’s going on so that you can summarize well. Probably one of the most neglected skills, but one of the most critical skills is to be able to reflect feelings to the individual. The coach’s ability to confront and address what they’re seeing.

Kyle Gray: (08:00)

So going deeper into a lot of what you’ve mentioned and you’ve specialized in, in terms of maybe this is where the term disguised grief can come in, because I imagine if you’re a coach, and no matter how you’re coaching people, you can run into these emotional blocks. Again, if you’re coaching somebody in marketing and you’re like, “Hey, you need to do a webinar,” and they’ve got some fear of being seen, you can run into this. So this isn’t just somebody who expects to sit on kind of the Sigmund Freud style couch or something, right?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (08:42)

Right, right.

Kyle Gray: (08:43)

No matter where you want to work, no matter who you are, if you are engaging with people, these are useful things. So can you tell me a little bit about how you help people work with their own emotions? Because I feel like you need to have emotional mastery before you can succeed in assisting others in navigating and guiding their feelings, or is that not true?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (09:07)

Well, it would be great if that’s true, but I don’t know that all of us have spent that amount of time digging into the emotional side of our house and especially digging into the unpleasant feeling side of our home. I would say there are two answers to the question. One is the more immediate one, which is how does one experience and move through unpleasant feelings, or how does one deal with their uncomfortable feelings?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (09:37)

In the second part, it has to do with the unpleasant feelings that are attached to painful and difficult life experiences or painful and difficult life episodes, if you will. Life stories, so, for me, there are two essential layers to that, and the first part has to do with one’s ability to move into or lean into those unpleasant feelings. So I can go both directions. I’ll follow your lead on this.

Kyle Gray: (10:08)

Yeah. I’d love to hear just kind of about leaning into these things and discovering these things because I think these are valuable things. Not only with your coaching, but, in a sense, like coaching yourself and making the right decisions on how to move your business forward and taking the right risks. I think being able to understand your emotions and being able to tune into those is crucial to being able to, I believe, successfully navigate a lot of these things.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (10:41)

We’re very much in agreement. Again, let me add a couple of different layers to this.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (10:53)

So the first layer obviously would be dealing with unpleasant feelings, and I’ll speak to that in a moment. A second layer would be dealing with kind of the thinking style that we have and what we’re saying to ourselves, which tacks onto this idea of harsh self-criticism, which is a crucial piece for me. The third is anxiety, which I recast in a very different way than most people talk about it, anxiety and fear. And then the fourth layer would be this notion of how does all this tie back to those painful old life experiences? So let me start in with the first one. So I started to talk initially about what I went through as a kid. The first question those wounds opened up to was, how does somebody develop confidence? As I got into my professional life and started working with people, what I realized is, as much as our thinking gets in the way, what I found is, difficulty tolerating unpleasant feelings got in the way even more. So a second question then kind of percolated for me, and that is, what made it so difficult for people to tolerate unpleasant feelings, or experience and move through them? What I realized over time, and this is now decades, is that the answer to the second question about unpleasant feelings answered the first question about confidence.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (12:23)

So, for me, confidence, and this would then relate to taking those risks, like doing the webinar or whatever, a talk, or whatever it might be to advance your professional life and to advance your career. Confidence is the deep sense that you can handle the emotional outcome, and those two words are the key pieces, the deep understanding that you can control the psychological outcome of whatever you face or whatever you pursue.

Kyle Gray: (12:54)

Wow. I don’t think I’ve ever quite heard confidence defined like that. I don’t know if I’ve spent enough time asking the question, “What do you define confidence as?” But that was not quite what you might expect to hear or from an answer.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (13:11)

Right, but watch how this unfolds.

Kyle Gray: (13:16)

Yeah.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (13:17)

So then the question, “Well, how do you develop confidence?” And the foundational piece of confidence for me is to be able to experience and move through eight unpleasant feelings. That really, that is the thrust of the book that I came out with, “90 Seconds to a Life You Love.” But I talk about being able to experience and handle those unpleasant feelings or, in essence, to deal with the emotional outcome by dealing with eight uncomfortable feelings, and it comes out through a formula.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (13:52)

So think of it, a colleague of mine affectionately called it the “Rosenberg reset,” which stuck. So if we think about the reset, the formula is one choice, eight feelings, 90 seconds. I’m asking people to be aware of and in touch with their moment to moment experience as opposed to avoidance. It’s so elegantly nuanced, but it could be drugs, it could be shopping, it could be pornography, it could be food, it could be sex, it could be having feelings about having feelings, it could be harsh self-criticism. There are countless different ways for us to distract and avoid. The first thing that I want people to do is to choose in and lean into unpleasant feelings and be aware of them as opposed to avoidance. That’s the one choice, awareness.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (14:47)

The second part of it is eight feelings. Again, through all my decades of experience, what I’ve found is that if people can experience and move through feelings of sadness, shame, helplessness, anger, vulnerability, embarrassment, disappointment, and frustration, then they can pretty much pursue whatever they want. It’s like, why these eight? So these are the eight feelings. Talk about one choice, eight emotions. These eight feelings because they’re the most common everyday spontaneous reactions to things not turning out the way that we perceive we need or the way we want.

Kyle Gray: (15:31)

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (15:32)

Right? So they’re everyday reactions to stuff not going well.

Kyle Gray: (15:35)

I can see that. Yeah.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (15:37)

So that’s what I want people to be able to handle.

Kyle Gray: (15:41)

Incredible. We’ve covered a couple of different areas of this so far. You’ve shown us how we can start to work with that in ourselves, and I know that there’s a whole ocean of information that you have beyond that. You’re showing us how to work with that and others or how to train that into other people. But one of the things that you mentioned before we started recording, and I think it’s tied in with this, is you said you work with Bo Eason. You actually can do this with an audience of people, or maybe not exactly this, and correct me in a moment. Still, you can get up on stage, and you can work with an audience’s psychology from the stage and get a visible change in energy in the room. I would love to hear a little bit more about kind of what that looks like for you and how you would work with the psychology of an audience to maybe get them more open to your message or whoever’s message and get them in the right emotional state.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (16:52)

I want to frame that a little differently. What I will do, in that setting is I actually kind of frame the experience that the audience is likely to have so that I want to give them a heads up because I know that Bo is going to take them down the road of exploring some painful life experiences.

Kyle Gray: (17:13)

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (17:14)

What I want to do is frame what they can expect from a psychological standpoint. They’re not surprised by it, and that there’s a mild anticipation, they’re not going to know where it goes. Still, it helps them head down a self-exploration journey that could open up some memories that might open up other memories. The second part of that is to reassure them that somebody is on hand if something feels like it gets too hard or they don’t know how to make sense of it. I’m available to individuals or the audience as a whole, depending on the questions. But it’s not a situation where I’m trying to have the audience necessarily react a certain way.

Kyle Gray: (18:10)

I see.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (18:11)

It’s really to frame the experience for them and then to be available for them.

Kyle Gray: (18:15)

Well, and for those who don’t know, Bo Eason is a very, very powerful speaker, and he does challenge people on a profound level. When you get tested on a deep level, and you want to make significant changes, it’s almost inevitable that you’ll find something ugly in the back closet. So it’s just part of the journey, but I think that that’s so valuable what you did and how you help people with that.

Kyle Gray: (18:47)

You mentioned you’d done some Ted talks, and I’ve got a ton of questions around this. How did you secure these speaking events? How did you prepare? And what have you done since then, or how have they worked for your business? But tell me a little bit about how did you first get invited to do a Ted talk? Did you research it yourself? How did you apply? What did the starting up process look like when you had your idea you wanted to share?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (19:25)

By invitation. I would say it started earlier, and the first was thinking that I had an idea that might make a difference in the world, and Ted wants things that are unique and that it was a little bit different. Part of the ideas I’m expressing today are part of what’s in that first talk. So envisioning was kind of the starting point. It probably took, I don’t know, three or four years, but I ended up in a situation where the individual that was producing the Santa Barbara Ted talk, our paths crossed. She wanted to talk to me about the work I was doing in the area of emotion, and I wanted to speak to her about the Ted talk. She wanted me to go first. So I told her the idea, which she said, “Well, that sounds like a unique idea and that it would be worthy of Ted.” Then I asked her how I could help her, and it turns out everything I related to her, it was the very thing that she used moments after I told her. I think that had an impact, and I’ll spare the details, but it had an effect, and I got invited to do that Ted talk. The preparation was, again, it’s outlining the idea, it’s hours and hours of honing the message. It’s hours and hours of practice, and then it’s the delivery. The great news is I’m less than 10,000 away from a million views at this point.

Kyle Gray: (21:05)

Wow. Well, congratulations. So key tip number one, you’ve heard it here first, become the psychotherapist to a Ted curator. 

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (21:21)

It was one conversation.

Kyle Gray: (21:27)

Okay. As far as, you mentioned, tons and tons of practice and this is something when I work with my clients, I like to help them put together a presentation, and they feel good after the coaching call and then as soon as they start practicing, at first they’re like, “Oh my God, it’s all falling apart.” But I’m like, “You’ve got to practice.” Can you tell me about some of the practice and preparation and maybe was there one good insight that changed like, “Oh I should say this instead of that,” or, “I should move this way when sharing this idea,” that you feel took your presentation to the next level?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (22:03)

Yeah, I think there’s a couple of things with that. One is it when practicing; again, the writing is part of it and having good people to assist with that because I ended up turning to many different people to get some guidance on it, and each time I did it, it got better.

Kyle Gray: (22:21)

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (22:22)

But beyond that part of it, it’s practicing it out loud. It’s chucking it down, and it’s practicing it out loud. Even up a day or two before, I was practicing a whole talk with a friend of mine; there were certain lines that I just kept on missing. I was like, “You know what? Those aren’t as relevant. If I’m missing them and they’re not sticking for me, then let me just pull them out.” Or situations where I would think I wanted to say something one way, but again, I kept on messing up that line, and it’s like, “No, then let’s clean that up.” But it’s the practice out loud-

Kyle Gray: (23:05)

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (23:07)

That makes the difference in being able to figure out what works in that regard and what doesn’t. I think the other thing I found was as I put together different talks because I speak more than obviously just doing the Ted talks, and so I speak and train, what I see is that where I start to feel a little bored, then I’ve got too much content going and not enough emotion. So what I’m doing is I notice it more when I speak it out loud than when it’s written.

Kyle Gray: (23:42)

Oh yeah.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (23:45)

You’ve got to do the writing and then you’ve got to practice it out loud and those boredom points were things that I was like, “Yep, we’re going to miss this one too.”

Kyle Gray: (23:54)

I love it, and this is probably a result of all of the kind of deep work you’ve been doing, but I love that you gave yourself permission to remove a line that wasn’t working instead of just trying to hammer it out. I feel like a lot of people, especially when faced with a big presentation, they don’t give themselves that grace or flexibility that they could. I think that that’s powerful. And being able to critique yourself. I feel like the smarter you are, the easier it is to make the mistake that you described, avoiding putting too much content in trying to teach too much stuff. When you’re faced with either speaking at an event where other health experts are or being on a big stage where a lot of people are going to see it, people feel the need to be as smart as possible.

Kyle Gray: (24:55)

They’ve got to prove themselves or really it’s not so necessary and if you just pare it down to what can make an impact on me right now?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (25:05)

Right.

Kyle Gray: (25:05)

Yeah. It’s kind of taking the focus off of, how do I make myself look smart versus how do I create meaningful impact.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (25:16)

That’s been a big learning curve for me too, is over time it’s realizing it has nothing to do with what you think others think of you.

Kyle Gray: (25:25)

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (25:25)

It has everything to do with the message you want to deliver. Yeah, so it’s staying centered on the inside to provide the message.

Kyle Gray: (25:33)

Well said, and probably another thing that working in kind of these unpleasant emotions and uncovering your disguised grief can help. You’re 10,000 away from a million views, tell me how this Ted talk has changed your business or changed how you’re working with people, and does it bring in clients? Where you intentional

Kyle Gray: (26:00)

When thinking, “Oh, well, I hope this talk eventually helps this program or something.” Tell me what it looks like post-TED.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (26:08)

That’s a great question. Well, let me do the pre-TED for a moment first.

Kyle Gray: (26:12)

Yeah.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (26:13)

I started writing the book, The 90 Seconds Book, without that title. It was under a different title 10 years ago. So in 2009, 2009 to 2011, I wrote 250,000 words or, no, that’s not right, 250 pages. And then I attempted to sell the book. Pre-TED I tried to get an agent for the book and to sell the book. Along the way, I realized that I wanted to do it a TED talk. So probably four years-ish into that, I was like, I think this might be a good idea for that. So it was 2015, I believe, that I connected up with the Santa Barbara producer of TEDx, and then it eventually led to the TEDx talk that I did in August of 2016.

Kyle Gray: (27:19)

Very cool.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (27:21)

And again, mind you, part of what I envisioned because I talked about envisioning the TED talk as well. Part of what I envisioned is that good things would come out of it. A good thing that would come out of it for me, one of those things might be a book. It turns out that a month after, roughly a month to six weeks after the TED talk was released, I posted it to a wall on Facebook, a group page on Facebook. Somebody took it and posted it on her own Facebook wall. And her book agent scrolling on the subway saw it.

Kyle Gray: (28:03)

Yes.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (28:05)

Just scrolling through her phone, stopped, saw the talk, reached out to the colleague of mine, and said, “Can you put us in touch?” And she reached out, said, had I considered coalescing these ideas into a book? Had I ever thought that? 

Kyle Gray: (28:23)

Yeah, what was before the title?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (28:26)

Emotional Pilates.

Kyle Gray: (28:30)

Nice. Okay. That’s good, but I like the new one better, I think. But yeah, it’s always funny to me in my books, the title that I start with often dramatically changes from what eventually gets published.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (28:50)

Yeah, so one of the best things that came out, five days later, five days after that agent saw it, I had an agent.

Kyle Gray: (28:57)

Wow.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (28:58)

What came out of having the agent was getting the book out into the world. What’s happened with getting the book out in the world is people; their lives are changing. On its own, it’s organically grown to a million views. So I’m grateful that I took the risk. So again, to get back to the whole notion of how important it is for us to take risks to put our work out there.

Kyle Gray: (29:26)

Now, in your own business and how it’s structured, is it set up in a way that you want to sell more copies of your book, or are there other, do you have courses or certifications? Do people who read your writing get in touch with you and then want to, are these trying to go for positions? Being psychology students wanting to apprentice under you? Or is there coaching.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (29:54)

No, not so much that directly. It’s probably not yet enough out into the world of psychotherapy. And so that’s next on my list. It’s a matter of what I can do at one time. Yes, there will be an online course. I’ll be making a retreat in 2020. And in all likelihood, there will be a certification as well, kind of a train the trainer. I’m getting requests on both those fronts. So I’ll be doing a live event, and then from that, I’ll end up building out some certification to help people be able to use this approach with people that they’re coaching.

Kyle Gray: (30:31)

Awesome work.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (30:32)

And the thing is, it’s not about me. Because this was never about me building my practice. If there’s anything that I think is more important for me to be doing, it’s actually to get out to broader audiences, speaking, and training. So for anybody who’s listening, honestly, that’s the thing that I would welcome even more. Because it’s no longer about a one-to-one approach.

Kyle Gray: (31:00)

Yeah.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (31:01)

Am I grateful when the book sells? Of course, I am. And I now have the benefit of understanding the impact that’s happening, which is significant. But the more important thing is for me to be able to have more and more people be aware of it. So it’s the speaking and training that I-

Kyle Gray: (31:19)

Yeah. Well, what I love about this, and you know, a lot of people come to me with similar talents and abilities, but they haven’t quite honed them. They’re always thinking, how can I get this to grow my business. But I think the people that when you get to the point where you have a vision that’s just so compelling and so fascinating to you, that you just make it a part of what you’re doing and you wish to bring it and share it with the world. And again, yeah, it’s totally beyond you or your things you’ve committed to this message. Just like, almost exactly what you are saying when, it’s not about what people think of you as a person, but you’ve again committed to this higher vision, higher message. And I love that because that not only helps the message succeed, but I think it creates an energy and a power and an inspiration that gets you out of bed every day too. And so there’s, yeah, it’s leading with real generosity. And the world needs more of that.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (32:34)

Thank you. Thank you, very kind.

Kyle Gray: (32:36)

So, we’ve got just a little bit more in time, and we’ve covered a lot of things different from emotional mastery to speaking in front of millions of people. And I’m sure since there are 90 seconds in your book, I was wondering if you could give us some kind of short closing thought that we could use that might help us better master our emotions? And keep going?

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (33:02)

Yes, that would be coming full circle on the 90 seconds piece. And that is that the one nuance, or the essential element of what emerged from understanding unpleasant feelings or understanding how to manage them well, was realizing through the neuroscience research and their findings, that the way most of us experience uncomfortable… The way most of us have experienced feelings is through bodily sensations. And what dawned on me is that it wasn’t a situation where people had a hard time, just didn’t want to deal with an unpleasant feeling. What I realized is that they didn’t want to deal with the bodily sensation that helped them know what they were feeling.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (33:53)

So think embarrassment, the heat coming up into your chest and face. Or sadness, or disappointment, is a downward pressure against the center of the chest. Or whatever it might be for you. Or anger showing up in different ways. Clenched jaw, or heat at the back of your neck. It doesn’t matter what it is; it’s unique to you. 

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (34:24)

So the key here then is that what I want people to do is to lean into that. And so again, stay aware of and in touch with what you’re experiencing, breathe if you need to, and understand that it’s just an unpleasant feeling you need to deal with it. That’s the foundation of confidence and risk-taking. And the third part of it is to understand that the way you’re going to handle the unpleasant feelings when they arise, no matter what you’re facing, is by breathing into it, staying present to it, and riding one or more short, bodily sensation waves. And that’s the 90-second piece that Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor was the first to observe that once those biochemicals rush into our bloodstream that activate the bodily sensations, they flush out of the blood in an upper range of 90 seconds. So we’re talking about being able to experience and move through short-lived bodily sensations to stay present to our feeling experience.

Kyle Gray: (35:31)

Awesome. And this is probably more complex, but I’m thinking this. I would love to see a pie chart or an infographic on this.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (36:01)

Yeah, there’s two things to that. One is, a study was done. I think across about 20,000 people. And there is an infographic, a color infographic that’s out, that shows, and I would say it’s a gross picture or a rough picture of where generally people would describe where they experience certain feelings. And I want to; I would say that’s great and it’s nice that it exists, but the thing that I also want to emphasize here is that how we experience feeling is unique to us. So you might, other than making some generalizations that when feelings are more expansive, they tend to be more pleasant feelings. When experiences feel more constrictive or heavier and that kind of thing, or colder, then they tend to be more unpleasant feelings. But that would be the broadest generalization I would make. But how you experience embarrassment is likely very different from how I experience it.

Kyle Gray: (37:08)

I see.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (37:10)

And so there’s a uniqueness to it. One client will tell me that she feels the heat in her forearms, and that’s how she knows she’s angry. But another client will say to me she feels the heat at the back of her neck, and that’s how she knows she’s upset. So it’s that unique to us that, that I don’t think that that chart will be quite as relevant.

Kyle Gray: (37:32)

Darn!

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (37:33)

Yes.

Kyle Gray: (37:34)

Well, that’s okay. Of course, it’s part of the journey, and yeah, part of the discovery process. Well, Dr. Joan, it’s been so much fun chatting with you. I feel like we’ve covered a lot of different information, and it’s all very relevant and very applicable no matter where you’re coming from or what you’re doing. So you’ve done a fantastic amount of work and are making a huge impact, and I want to thank you for sharing your message and story with us on the Story Engine Podcast.

Dr. Joan Rosenberg: (38:02)

You bet, thanks so much.

Kyle Gray:

Thanks for listening to the Story Engine Podcast. Be sure to check out the show notes and resources mentioned on this episode and every other episode at thestoryengine.co. 

If you’re looking to learn more about how to use storytelling to grow your business, then check out my new book, Selling With Story: How to Use Storytelling to Become an Authority, Boost Sales, and Win the Hearts and Minds of Your Audience. This book will equip you with actionable strategies and templates to help you share your unique value and build trust in presentations, sales, and conversations, both online and offline. Learn more at sellingwithstory.co. 

Thanks for listening, and I’ll see you next time.