PODCAST
Today on the show we have Kathryn Jones. Kathryn is an expert at automation. Automation is a process where you set up a system once that works for you for a lifetime. This is one of the most powerful concepts in the digital marketing, in the online entrepreneurship, or just any kind of startup and business today. It can save you a lot of time and create really, really powerful results. Not only that, but she also talks about a concept called design hacking, which is very exciting for me. She will explain how to look at the top people in your industry, in your niche, how to look at and see what they’re doing right, how are they designing? What does the font look like? And to take the elements that they have painstakingly researched and apply them to your own campaigns, saving you lots of time and energy, and expensive copywriters and design work. So she breaks a lot of this down for you on the show.
Key Takeaways
[2:34] How Kathryn got started in automation
[4:30] What Kathryn did to set herself up for success
[7:54] The principles of automation
[12:19] Why less is more when showcasing products on your website
[16:52] What to look for in a well-designed website
[17:52] How to be an ethical design hacker to increase sales
[24:20] The checklist to use to be a click-funnel design hacker
[27:01] The important first steps to take in implementing and executing automation
Kathryn Jones Information
High Performance Habits: How Extraordinary People Become That Way
Transcript of Podcast
Kyle:
Hi there, and welcome to the Story Engine podcast. Without further ado, let’s start learning from Kathryn. So Kathryn, how are you doing today?
Kathryn:
Oh my gosh, I’m just so excited to be here, Kyle. You know I love talking to you, and honestly, I’m probably way too hyped about automation, so I love to talk about it too. So, it’s gonna be a great time.
Kyle:
Thank you. Yeah. So first I want to hear about how you got started in all of this. Now, I’ve seen a couple of your videos, and I was marveling at them recently because I really like your style on video. Tell us your story, and how you found yourself creating automation for people.
Kathryn:
Yeah, I mean, long story short, if I was going to go really far back I actually studied humanities in school. So who would have known that I would have ended up here?
Kyle:
Me too. Maybe there’s a trend here.
Kathryn:
Everyone, go study humanities, you’ll end up in internet marketing. Oh my gosh, that’s awesome. But yeah, before I had graduated I was like, I think if I’m actually gonna be able to make a difference, I should probably learn how to make money. And humanities was just not really cutting it. I started reading a lot of books on investment and personal finance, which got me integrated into people’s email marketing systems. And so people started selling me courses on consulting, freelance, blah, blah, blah. Which kind of got me started in this world, and it eventually spiraled into more the niche of internet marketing. Now it’s like, oh my gosh, this is the coolest thing.
Internet marketing and online business was the first thing that kind of resonated with my soul, because I thought, if I’m actually going to have the impact that I want, and on the community that I want, but also be a really present mother that I hope to be one day and a really present wife. If I really want to have both of those components, I have got to figure out how to streamline and essentially automate my business. And create it in a way that if I want to spend 40 hours a week on it, I could, or if I wanted to spend 40 minutes on it a week I could. And online business was kind of the first avenue that I thought, I think that actually might be pretty possible here. And so that’s kinda what spearheaded the whole thing. And I eventually just … I graduated from school. When I graduated school, I was taking three times as many courses online about internet marketing as I was in school. I was so checked out. I was like, I just can’t do school anymore. I love humanities, put me in a museum all day, but I was over it. And so, anyway it was great. So I kind of started doing just a little bit of marketing consulting, and then I thought …
Right now I’m 27, and I’m a woman. And so there’s not a lot of us in my demographic, in the internet marketing world. And so I think that can prove to be one of the greatest assets as well as most detrimental because sometimes, especially in the beginning, I’d go to a mastermind and people would think I was dating somebody until I opened my mouth. So I thought, if I could have something that would really set me apart, then I think that’d be great. So I said, if I had a best selling book, I think that would really help business out. So I decided to write a book. I literally reverse engineered it. I went into Amazon, and thought, where could I dominate a niche? And I found it there with full automation. And I thought, this actually really falls in line with what I do. Wrote a book on automation, became a bestseller, from that, launched my company, Automate Academy, and realized that what I was doing it with my marketing consulting, is I was essentially helping people to automate their businesses.
And so I said, I’m just going to niche down on that and get really good at it. And fast forward. So a lot of internet certifications later. A lot of clients help later. Here I am just living my automated life. And it is just really great. So my company, Automate Academy, I help people to automate their sales and their free time, and the growth of their following. So those are the three things I really focus on. And it’s just been a dream.
Kyle:
I love that. That’s so powerful these days. The tools that you’ve tapped into can really drive some of the most growth, and the most leverage for a business owner, and an entrepreneur, really. What I love about these tools, is that a lot of these things, to do what you do 20 years ago, 30 years ago would have required a whole floor of an office building. And now you can do it all from the comfort of your home, or a coffee shop, or wherever you may find yourself at the time. And I think that’s really powerful.
Kathryn:
Oh, I think if I wanted to do it seven years ago, I don’t think it really would have been as much of a viable option. And I think it’s just incredible. I think before to win in the tech world you had the crazy smart coder, you know what I mean? Just this phenomenal techie. And I will be the first to admit that I am none of those, at all. I have just really leveraged other people’s brilliance and pieced it together and it’s really worked out for me and my clients. So grateful for smart people that let me use their tools.
Kyle:
Absolutely.
Kathryn:
Yeah.
Kyle:
So some of this opportunity is a huge opportunity that very few people fully understand, and fewer people are really capitalizing on. And so I’d love for you to introduce us to some of the basic principles of automation, and where some of the most common places we can start automating our business are.
Kathryn:
Totally. So maybe I could just give you a basic example of this, maybe to give you a story then I can go into some of the details. But have you heard of Brendon Burchard before?
Kyle:
Oh yeah.
Kathryn:
Yeah, he is phenomenal. I’m sure a lot of listeners will know who he is as well. But he is amazing, and what he has done is he has actually built out his onboarding sequence for three years. Three years. So the second somebody opts into his email list, he has emails and products and things that will come to you at certain points, on certain days for three years. And he’s been able to figure out exactly, okay, at what point would a customer want to buy this? And what do I need to do to get the customer from this level to this level? From week four to seven? Just super brilliant. And so, he has been able to have such a profound impact, because he never has to worry about whether a new customer is being taken care of, or whether they’re being nurtured, or whether they’re being sold because he’s literally just built his system three years out.
And so, I remember when I heard about that, and it was kind of at the beginning of my automation stage, I said, that is freaking brilliant. How did he do that? And I think that’s kind of what spurred this thing of automation. And so, I think some of the principles of automation is … The very first one is, there’s a popular term in internet marketing. It was kind of popularized by Russell Brunson. He talks about a concept called the value ladder. Have you ever heard that, a value ladder?
Kyle:
I believe so, but I’d love for you to explain it to us.
Kathryn:
So essentially, and it’s the first principle of automation because what a value ladder does is, is it literally … I want you to imagine being upstairs. And at the very bottom of the stairs, it basically asks you, okay, where do you want your customer to be at the very beginning? How do you want to get them in? And so an example might be … Or how do you want to serve your customer? That’s what it is. So at the very bottom level, it’s like, oh, I just want to give them a free cheat sheet. Everybody’s seen those on Facebook or Instagram. Give me your email, free cheat sheet.
So it’s like cool, I want a free cheat sheet. And then it’s like, cool, next level up, what do you want to do? Well, maybe then I want to send someone a $7 swipe file. Great. Then I send them out. And then I want to sell them a $97 product. Great. Then I want to sell them for $297 product. Awesome. Then the $997 product. Then maybe I want to make sure that they’re doing some continuity programs. So they’re doing $300 a month. And so anybody that’s automating has a very, very, very clear picture of where they want their customer to start, and eventually where they want to ascend them to so that they become an ideal customer. And just having this perspective in mind, honestly, if all you ever did was have that at the forefront of your mind, everything that you did would be so much more clear because it’s like, oh well they bought a $37 product so I know where to take them next. So that’s the first principle of automation, is knowing where you want to take every single customer, because then once you do that then you start to break apart every level of this value ladder. So it’s like, okay, how do I get somebody that just downloaded my free cheat sheet, how do I get them from only having to give me an email address, to now getting them to pay me $7 for a swipe file?
So you say, what does that look like? And I mean if you know the strategies, great. If not the best principle for it is, go find somebody else that did the exact same thing. And it’s cool. Digital marketer is huge with these $7 products, which are sometimes called trip wires. So it’s like, how does a digital marketer get somebody to give them their email, then to immediately go to buying a $7 product? Honestly, you just kinda have … The people that have done it before, it’s like okay cool. So maybe they had a webpage with a video that explained X, Y and Z concept and they followed up with three emails. It’s like, alright, cool, I’ll do that. So then you build that out. So you get really good at going from $3 to $7, and then you just keep building it out. So it’s like, I’ve gotten somebody to buy a $7 product, how do I now bump them up to bill a $37 product? And again, you research it out, you can do strategies, hack different people. But you say, what series of videos, or web pages, or funnels, or emails, or texts, what needs to happen between this value, this rung of the ladder, and then the next.
Kathryn:
Between this value, this rung of the ladder and then the next and then again, this value of the ladder and then the next. If you can figure out the overall picture of that value ladder, and then what needs to happen in between each rung, then you’ve essentially been able to automate your entire business because all you have to focus on now is getting people through that very first ladder of the [fruit cheat sheet 00:10:19] and then everything else is taken care of from there on out.
Kyle:
Now, I think this is so powerful and the people I work with, usually health and wellness entrepreneurs, some of their problems are they’re just so scattered, they try and cram so many things onto their homepage. They want to communicate everything they have so far, and it’s like, “Well, why would I want to offer them this $7 thing, when really I’ve got a big vision for this thing, and what are they going to see, how are they going to think?” And I think a lot of people get caught up in those things.
Kathryn:
Well, and I think too, the internet has changed. I think a lot of these doctors, right, I mean, we had talked about this earlier. They have like 1996 versions of websites, so if we care about them we’ve got to help them out, right? But it’s really fascinating because the internet has totally changed. Back in the day, if you typed in old retro websites, you’ll see like the old websites like Macy’s or JC Penney’s, or I don’t know whatever it is. You’ll see that a majority of these websites, they looked kind of like eCommerce stores, right? Or like an Etsy store where you go to the site and there are hundreds of products on there. It’s kind of like, “Oh, pick and choose. Do what you want.”
But then what’s super cool is, consumers got way smarter, and businesses got smarter, so what ended up happening is that these businesses started to realize that the more choices that you give a consumer, the less that they buy. It’s insane. So, if you had a page, Kyle, for example, that had 10 products on it, and then you had a page that had just one single product on it, the page with 10 products would actually sell less than one, because what they found is that if you give them more choices to buy, then they get overwhelmed and they will actually do that. So that’s where this process of this value ladder or what’s called a funnel comes into play, because rather than …
Can I give you a really like a rudimentary example, okay?
[bctt tweet=”The more choices that you give a consumer, the less they buy -Kathryn Jones” username=”kylethegray”]
Kyle:
I’d love that.
Kathryn:
Let’s say you’re serving somebody, a customer, who wants to make a sandwich. Super basic level, right? Now, back in the old days, or if you were operating your business in a way that is not going to serve you and is not automated, you would just slap up a website, and you’d say, “Great, you can buy your breads here, you can buy your peanut butter here, you can buy your jam here. If you want to buy a pair of Ziploc bags here, napkins.” You know what I mean? You put them all in a single space. That would be the old way of doing it. The problem with that is, it’s kind of like you’re sending a customer into a grocery store and they don’t even know where to start, because probably on that page you’d also have lettuce, and I don’t know what else is in a grocery store? Meat, eggs, right? Too much.
Whereas, if you were to take this sandwich-needing customer, instead of doing it the old retro way of having a million products on the page, instead what you do is, you take this sandwich-needing customer, and you take them to a website where the only thing that you sold them was bread. That’s it. The only thing you’d sell them was bread. And then only if they said yes to bread would we sell them peanut butter, and then only if they said yes to peanut butter would we sell them jam, and then only if they said yes to jam would you upsell them on Ziploc bags and then again with like napkins or paper sack, or whatever, right?
Kyle:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kathryn:
Studies have shown that the money generated from selling one product at a time is through the roof significantly greater than anything you would make if you had all the products on that page at the same time. So, going kind of full circle back to your doctors, they’re like, “I want to put a $7 product at the front” you know what I mean? “when I have a $7,000 procedure that I want to do.” It really is more the process of, how can I hold my customer’s hand through this entire process of, “Hi, we just met, and ascending them to being comfortable buying the 7 grand products.” More often than not, the answer starts with the $7 product, and we’ll work your way up.
Kyle:
I think that’s amazing. That was a great example and a great walk-through on how you could conceptualize what these funnels do and how they work. I want to hear some more specific tactics on like automation and funnel, but first, something you’ve been mentioning a lot on this episode, and I think that’s really core to what makes you great, is your design hack. What you’ve been able to do really well is find other people who are performing well, who have achieved what you want to achieve, and then breaking down what makes it great, and applying it to your own situation. And I think you’ve done a great job at creating really good, really functional pages in a very short time doing that, and I think a lot of people get hung up in exactly this area where you excel. So I’d love to hear a little bit more about your process for design hacking and how somebody could do that, and maybe some easy ways to apply that in their own businesses.
Kathryn:
That is a great question. It’s really interesting. So, this company that I have, right, Automate Academy, I do a lot of client work. People will basically come to me and give me their business and say, “Help.” Right? More often than not, it’s really interesting that the issue that they have, more than a copy issue, usually they have pretty good copy, and usually, they have a pretty good offer, but they’re not selling anything. And the reason why is actually because of design. You go to their site, and I from initial I’m like, “I do not think this is credible. Yeah, I would never give you my credit card information.” Or I’d be like, “I would never do that.” So I think what is really interesting, actually Stanford, Kyle, they just came out with this study at Stanford University, and it says that people will determine the credibility of a website within half of a second. Literally 0.5 seconds they’re going to determine whether this is credible or not.
[bctt tweet=”According to Stanford University, people will determine the credibility of a website within a half of a second, with 90% judging design. -Kathryn Jones” username=”kylethegray”]
What is even crazier than that is that 90% of what they’re judging is your design. So literally, within half a second, people are deciding, “Am I going to buy for you, or no?” So what you said, I think a lot of people will just kind of slap up a webpage. You know what I mean? It’s like, “Eh, it doesn’t really matter what it looks like. If it’s a good enough product it will be fine.” But all these recent studies are showing that if your page does not have exceptional design, and that goes for anything from the structure of the page to what the word fonts look like, what your images are, what your color scheme is, what elements of energy are on there with hyperlink buttons, kind of what your spacing is. Any of these elements, if your page is not designed for conversion, then it doesn’t matter. If it’s ugly, people won’t even stay on your page long enough to figure it out what it’s going to look like.
So, so many people, when they came to me with their businesses to help automate, they’d ask me to help, and literally, it was almost always a design issue. I said, “Nobody is going … You’re never going to be able to automate your sales because nobody’s staying on your page long enough to even see what you’re doing here. It was really interesting. That was primarily what a majority of my work was in helping these people to automate their sales was redesigning how they presented their information. And again, that is as simple as like a headline’s up here to a video should go up here. And it’s crazy that like a video on the left performs better than a video on the right. How do you know that? Well, go stalk all the companies that you know are making multi-million dollars a year and see what they’re doing.
If you’re going to launch some sort of streaming service, then you’d be stupid not to go check out what Hulu is doing. How do they automate? You know what I mean?
Kyle:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kathryn:
Or a subscription service. If you’re doing a subscription service, I would go figure out what Netflix is doing, because they have that thing definitely figured out. Or how does Amazon Prime sell it? They’ve really figured that whole system out, as well. And I think that’s the greatest thing about it is, you don’t necessarily need to learn … I actually sold a course on this, how to design funnels. Because you don’t need to know how to code, you don’t need to know Photoshop, you don’t need to have any prior design knowledge. You don’t even go to graphic design school. You just need to learn how to actually figure out what sales secrets are embedded within people’s designs. And if you can learn to see like that, then all the sudden you can build pages super easy and super quick, that you can be so sure are going to convert, because you’ve ethically hacked them from companies that are making multi-million dollars a year.
So I worked really hard to learn how to do that, and it’s been awesome because I’ve really been able to expedite my success and I think the success of my clients because you really skip this guessing trial and error period. It’s like, “Eh, we hacked it after this website. So here’s what we’re going to do.” For an example, I had a client come to me recently, and she was a mindset coach in the real estate niche. Her web presence, God bless her, was so bad, not good. She had a few clients, but she was charging about $500 a month for her services. Her most was $500, her biggest was $1,500 a month, all the same coaching service. Anyway, she said, “I know I need to up my credibility online if I’m going to get more clients. So essentially we said, “Okay, well who are your client bases. We talked about it and figured out that probably Marie Forleo … Have you heard of her before?
Kyle:
Yeah. Yeah, she’s B-School, right?
Kathryn:
Yeah, exactly. B-School, like homies with Oprah, like I think she has about 200,000 email subscribers. She’s made a name for herself. We did some customer research and realized that Marie has a similar customer base to this woman that was a real estate coach. So I said, “Cool. Let’s design your site based off of Marie’s.” So we took the design concepts embedded within Marie’s site incorporated this real estate coach’s things, and it was crazy. We built up her pages, drove some traffic to it, she started getting people to register like crazy, literally because … Nothing changed. Her product didn’t change, she didn’t change.
Literally, the only thing that changed was the design of how she presented herself. And within two and a half months’ time, she raised her rates. The same product, she raised her rates from $500 a month to $6,500 a month. That is a huge increase, and it’s crazy because the only thing we did was mimic the design and outline of a business that was more successful than her and that alone was able to just totally help her to up her sales and then of course on the back end, automate them and so it’s amazing what you can do now if you’re smart enough, how to leverage the success of other people and kind of incorporate your own business into it.
Kyle:
That’s extremely powerful. Let me read that back to you so I make sure I’m getting this right. So what we wanna do is figure out who our audience is, figure out who else is rocking it at serving that specific audience and then figure out what we wanna sell, what we wanna do and then see how they’re doing. And you also said ethically hack which you didn’t go out and say this, but like it’s obvious you don’t pillage Marie Forleo’s copy and then just paste it on your sight. But you take the way you understand, okay, the video’s placed here, the call to action is placed here. The emotional feel of this call to action button is kind of like this. So we can replicate that but communicate our value instead of her value and kind of follow the design and the layout but applying our own personality, our own copy, our own intellectual property to it.
Kathryn:
Absolutely. But I think you could even go deeper right? It’s like, okay, what fonts is she using and why is that appealing to who she’s using? So like if she’s using some sort of Serif font, right? Do I use the same? Is that too copying or maybe I go find a similar Serif font, and it’s like why is that Serif font working, right? Or it’s like what’s her color scheme, you know? Is it mostly modern with a lot of blank space or are there a lot of images in the back and what are those images doing and how could we replicate that?
Or even things to like spacing, right? How much spacing is between the words? And it’s crazy that all these things make a difference, but I am not kidding you. If you were to have everything the exact same but even just your spacing was different then Marie’s, it will have a total impact. Even the spacing of words and the spacing of images can have this complete, just this complete effect, because I think there are a ton of people that build funnels or websites or whatever and they’re like, “We aren’t doing that.” They put a headline here and they put a video here and I did the same thing and it’s not working.
It’s like, “Well I think that was a good start.” But I think if you’re really going to learn. I’m training a generation, we call ourselves design hackers, right? Because it’s so much more than, there’s a term called funnel hackers, right, or website hackers. It’s so much deeper than that because you really have to look into what are the secrets embedded within this design. What is it about this font that is making people want to buy? Or what is it about this image that is making people want to trust us and how can we replicate that? Not copy, right, but replicate for our own business and with our own IP, like you said for ourselves.
Kyle:
Do you have a checklist that you follow when doing this, ’cause you’ve gotten very, very detailed, and I’m wondering if there’s something that somebody who wanted to get into this could say, “Okay, for a step, do these things and okay, let’s check their fonts and see what this looks like. Okay, let’s check the spacing, see what that…” Do you have something like that?
Kathryn:
Yeah I do so I actually sell a course on it and the whole thing’s called CF Design School, CF stands for Click Funnels, but basically if you wanted to know how to web design or funnel design, take my course and I’ll teach you all the nuances and how you need to not learn how to learn how to code and different things like that.
But really quickly I’ll tell you kind of the things to look for. The first thing I tell people to look for is what’s the structure of their page, what’s the layout, how many rows, how many columns, what are they looking at? When I tell people to look at the words, right? What fonts are they using? What’s the size of the font? What’s the color of the fonts? I talk about images. What images are they using, background, foreground, then I talk about different colors, right? What’s the color scheme? What’s the background, foreground, words, different things like that.
We talk about different elements of energy. Basically anything on the page that does something, right? Where are the buttons, or the hyperlinks, or a video pop-up? Finally, talk about this element of spacing. So it’s those six things and literally if you just start to harness eyes to be able to identify what people are doing in those six different aspects. Structure, words, images, pain, energy, and spacing. It’s just a game changer for your business.
Kyle:
Wow.
Kathryn:
It’s really fun too. I have a 20-year-old in my course and I have a woman whose 68 years old who’s never built a website in her life. She’s killing it. I mean, she literally joined my course I think seven days ago and you would not believe what she is producing. It’s so cool and I mean, there’s another guy, he literally was on my webinar 16 days ago and he’s made $5000 in design sales and he didn’t even know how to do anything before and I think it’s just this principle of if you start to look at design as well as automation. I think design can sometimes be this really vague. It is vague, whatever feels right or blah, blah, blah, blah.
But if you start to look at it as more of a science, you can build things really beautifully and that convert really quickly and because you have a good design. It’s been so fun to be able to teach it to people in all these different niches to just see how they’re exploding in helping their clients explode as well.
Kyle:
That’s incredible. One of the things I wanna do to tie this all together. You’ve given us a lot on like good concepts of what automation is and why we should use it and actually to design for it. I was wondering if you could kind of close this out in the last few minutes if possible, tell me if this is a big rabbit hole, but, I’d love to figure out a really common, really good first step. Somebody’s here, they have a website and they have a little bit of traffic. Maybe they have a product, maybe, maybe not. They have something to actually capture emails.
Where’s the first place that you start with people? What’s the very first piece that you want to put into place or where’s the first place to start with automation that will start getting results for you?
Kathryn:
A 100% the very first thing that you should ever do is to find your value ladder like we talked about in the beginning. If you don’t have just the most specific clear vision of where you want to take a cold customer too, then become your dream customer. If you don’t have a big picture, it’s hard to build out the nuances of it all.
So what I would tell anybody who has any semblance of business. Whatever it looks like, whatever level they’re at, right, is they need to take an inventory of all the products they’re selling, right, and actually put them into a value ladder.
So in my ideal world, if I could choose how every customer’s experience went, right? What would I want them to buy first and then what would I want them to buy, and then what would I want them to buy and I would have them to get very, very clear on that.
So I think that would be step number one and then step number two is I would say, “Great, start to build it out.” So make sure that your value rung ladder from step zero of probably giving away something for free, right, to step one of selling your first product, start to build it out. What does that look like, what series of emails do I need to get? And once you start to get good conversions from ladder rung zero to ladder rung one, then it’s like cool, let’s start to build out ladder one/two and then two to three and then a three to four and that’s how these huge businesses, I mean…
It’s why you can have a lifelong customer of Nike right? Their value ladder is just forever and for always, right? Their value ladder even includes products they haven’t even made yet, right? But they’re like, we know this guy bought LeBron shoes and we know that in five years, we’re gonna come out with a new version and we’re gonna upsell him so in five years, he’s gonna buy them.
Like you know that they’re planning for a shoe that they’ve never even made yet. That’s why companies like Nike are so amazing because already now, they are prepping. My cousin, who is this like avid LeBron fan, right, to buy his shoe in five years that doesn’t even exist yet. Because they know that it’s coming. I mean it doesn’t need to be as intense as five years out, right? But it’s like most people don’t even have a plan for three months out or three weeks out?
So I would just say to everybody listening to this, for the love of all things and if you care about your customer, right? Make them not feel lost inside your business and this tribe that you might have. Hold their hand and so really get clear about what your value ladder is, where you want them to start and where you eventually want them to end up.
Kyle:
Wow, that’s incredible. This has been a really great introduction to automation and there’s so much good stuff that people can really take away and get amazing results. So Kathryn, where can people go if they want to check out more of what you’re doing. If maybe they heard a couple of tips on this episode and get amazing results and wanna sing some praises or yeah, just connect with you more?
Kathryn:
Totally. So my company is called Automate Academy. So you can just go automateacademy.com and just get integrated there. You’ll see some fun automation stuff. You’ll see how I’m automating you into my system, but hopefully you’ll like it and you’ll be able to kind of hack me and see what I’m doing and then incorporate it into your own. So automateacademy.com, I’d love to have you.
Kyle:
Kathryn, it’s been such a pleasure, thank you for sharing some time and wisdom with us today.
Kathryn:
Of course, Kyle, anything for you, anything for you.